panicberry
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Post by panicberry on May 13, 2014 2:15:45 GMT
Inspired by recent events, his holiness Pope Elderberry I, divinely appointed by Todd, Son of the God of Corn, sees fit to call a grand synod to clarify the rules of mafia a bit. The main issue is the legitimacy of voting for "No Lynch" or similar schemes (such as my ""Everyone vote for the person below") and the sharing of screenshots. While ultimately discretion on all these issues should belong to the GM foremost and players to validate, it'd be helpful if we could at least set up what the standard rules would be.
For purposes of reaching some consensus before another game starts, the poll will close June 1st.
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on May 13, 2014 2:23:46 GMT
Where's the none of the above option. Gosh it gives me the irrits when no one is lynched.
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panicberry
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Post by panicberry on May 13, 2014 2:24:39 GMT
I'll reedit the poll to allow for none.
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SCIENCE
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Post by SCIENCE on May 13, 2014 4:25:35 GMT
Forwarding GM message should be forbidden (and hence why I don't do it).
Imagine. I'm an innocent citizen of Bumblefuck, June.
Nothing stops me from forwarding my innocent citizen message to everyone in the game. Yes, the mafia will probably kill me, however, everybody else has no danger of forwarding their message to me. I connect the innocents, and voilà, game over.
Of course, there is the counter act of: Sending decoy messages. The GameMaster sends out an extra message to all mafia, but this message is just the innocent citizen message. For good measure, everyone with a special role gets the innocent citizen message. So that you can't distinguish between special roles and "mafia decoyed as innocent citizens".
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TSM
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Post by TSM on May 13, 2014 4:32:08 GMT
I don't like forwarding messages, and all types of Mafia that I've played have that feature disabled.
Screenshot sharing I like well enough though, but even that was constrained by only being able to send a message to one person at a time, a feature I also like. It really ups the drama
Of course, I'm used to playing werewolf, not mafia, which has a number of differences.
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Post by whereyouthinkyoupoliying on May 13, 2014 10:54:12 GMT
I'll just repost what I said in the other thread: I think sending screenshots and/or forwarding messages is completely fine behind the scenes. After all, the townies have to find each other somehow, which, if you aren't the investigator, could take forever. But if you're reasonably sure that someone is innocent and you want to contact them, you'll usually need some kind of proof to show them you're not mafia. As for the other stuff listed in the poll: - voting no lynch: of course it should be allowed. I find it as annoying as the next person if there's round after round of no lynching, or if the majority of players goes for "no lynch" just to look nice and innocent while letting a handful of others do the dirty work. But sometimes you genuinely might want to abstain from voting to lynch for whatever reasons. Also, I don't like lynching without anything to go on, so I would have no qualms not to lynch in the first round. - voting for self: I've never been in a mafia game where that came up and I can't really think of a situation where that would come up, so I can't really comment on it. - communicating with the dead: absolutely not. This obviously can't be enforced but it should pretty much be rule #1 to adhere to for any mafia game, because if you don't you're kind of a dick. Forwarding GM message should be forbidden (and hence why I don't do it). Imagine. I'm an innocent citizen of Bumblefuck, June. Nothing stops me from forwarding my innocent citizen message to everyone in the game. Yes, the mafia will probably kill me, however, everybody else has no danger of forwarding their message to me. I connect the innocents, and voilà, game over. Yikes, I've never even thought of that. Clearly I lack in criminal energy. I'll still stick with my "it should be allowed" because I can't really see many people doing this nor it really working in the timeframe you'd have before you get killed.
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Дьяково
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Post by Дьяково on May 13, 2014 12:08:34 GMT
I'm fine with sharing screenshots privately and with voting "no lynch" even though I consider the latter a bad idea.
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Post by Serrland on May 13, 2014 13:00:12 GMT
Sharing screenshots privately is okay in my books. It's a gamble - you've got to hope that the recipient isn't mafia. It's guesswork and some puzzle solving to try to find out who to trust and who to mistrust.
It's when they're shared publicly that, in my eyes, it crosses into a less acceptable area.
Voting for no lynch and voting for self should both be allowed.
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Дьяково
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Post by Дьяково on May 13, 2014 13:01:56 GMT
Sharing screenshots privately is okay in my books. It's a gamble - you've got to hope that the recipient isn't mafia. It's guesswork and some puzzle solving to try to find out who to trust and who to mistrust. It's when they're shared publicly that, in my eyes, it crosses into a less acceptable area. Voting for no lynch and voting for self should both be allowed. There's also the risk that the screenshot you're getting is faked...
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Post by Serrland on May 13, 2014 13:04:00 GMT
Sharing screenshots privately is okay in my books. It's a gamble - you've got to hope that the recipient isn't mafia. It's guesswork and some puzzle solving to try to find out who to trust and who to mistrust. It's when they're shared publicly that, in my eyes, it crosses into a less acceptable area. Voting for no lynch and voting for self should both be allowed. There's also the risk that the screenshot you're getting is faked... That's also true. A bit more effort than I'd want to put into an online game of mafia, but if other folks want to go through the hassle it could definitely be faked. And in a way, that just makes the game all the more intriguing. I guess I might have to start pumping more ranks into my sense motive skill...
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panicberry
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Post by panicberry on May 13, 2014 15:53:05 GMT
I'd just note that innocents having little or no idea who else is an innocent realistically is the core of mafia. The entire idea is that there is a small group with great intel and a large group with no intel and giving the large group a way to circumvent that built in handicap fundamentally upsets the balance.
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Дьяково
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Post by Дьяково on May 13, 2014 16:05:34 GMT
I'd just note that innocents having little or no idea who else is an innocent realistically is the core of mafia. The entire idea is that there is a small group with great intel and a large group with no intel and giving the large group a way to circumvent that built in handicap fundamentally upsets the balance. True, though this brings up the question of how Mafia works as a party game. Anybody here have any experience playing this in person?
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Oviraptor
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Post by Oviraptor on May 13, 2014 16:15:48 GMT
I'd just note that innocents having little or no idea who else is an innocent realistically is the core of mafia. The entire idea is that there is a small group with great intel and a large group with no intel and giving the large group a way to circumvent that built in handicap fundamentally upsets the balance. True, though this brings up the question of how Mafia works as a party game. Anybody here have any experience playing this in person? Yeah, it's chaos and the innocents always lose. But it's great fun.
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Post by Serrland on May 13, 2014 16:23:35 GMT
I'd just note that innocents having little or no idea who else is an innocent realistically is the core of mafia. The entire idea is that there is a small group with great intel and a large group with no intel and giving the large group a way to circumvent that built in handicap fundamentally upsets the balance. True, though this brings up the question of how Mafia works as a party game. Anybody here have any experience playing this in person? That's how I first started playing, I'm pretty new to playing online. It's fast paced, chaotic, and confusing. I've always played it where the Narrator writes out roles and alignments on paper, distributes them, and announces it is day. Night comes and players all close their eyes. Sometimes it goes mafia first, then innocents with nighttime roles, other times vice versa. If someone opens their eyes at the wrong time and the Narrator catches them, they die.
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panicberry
7500+
Phantom of the Opera
God save the Berry!
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Post by panicberry on May 13, 2014 16:40:37 GMT
I'd just note that innocents having little or no idea who else is an innocent realistically is the core of mafia. The entire idea is that there is a small group with great intel and a large group with no intel and giving the large group a way to circumvent that built in handicap fundamentally upsets the balance. True, though this brings up the question of how Mafia works as a party game. Anybody here have any experience playing this in person? Yes. It normally goes really quick, lynchings aren't organised debates and essentially just mob votes, and coordination at the level we've seen in the last games are pretty much nonexistent. With that in mind, I'd ask if we want to attempt to recreate the party game mass chaos or if this is closer to an organised game with subterfuge. At a core level, there must be more coordination in these versions than normal because time has to be set away to allow votes from the various time zones so I can see the argument that despite us calling this mafia this is not standard parlour mafia.
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SCIENCE
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Post by SCIENCE on May 13, 2014 17:18:20 GMT
I'd just note that innocents having little or no idea who else is an innocent realistically is the core of mafia. The entire idea is that there is a small group with great intel and a large group with no intel and giving the large group a way to circumvent that built in handicap fundamentally upsets the balance. True, though this brings up the question of how Mafia works as a party game. Anybody here have any experience playing this in person? It's how I know this game (though I know it as "Weerwolven" {werewolves; dutch is hard}). There are several things there that do not work out on the internet. For example there is the role of the little girl. She can sneak a peek during the night by opening one eye. This one does not work. Also, everything goes quicker, and in the night you have to be fairly silent, and just make your choices by pointing and not move too much, otherwise your neighbours notice.
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on May 13, 2014 22:02:07 GMT
I'll just repost what I said in the other thread: I think sending screenshots and/or forwarding messages is completely fine behind the scenes. After all, the townies have to find each other somehow, which, if you aren't the investigator, could take forever. But if you're reasonably sure that someone is innocent and you want to contact them, you'll usually need some kind of proof to show them you're not mafia. As for the other stuff listed in the poll: - voting no lynch: of course it should be allowed. I find it as annoying as the next person if there's round after round of no lynching, or if the majority of players goes for "no lynch" just to look nice and innocent while letting a handful of others do the dirty work. But sometimes you genuinely might want to abstain from voting to lynch for whatever reasons. Also, I don't like lynching without anything to go on, so I would have no qualms not to lynch in the first round. - voting for self: I've never been in a mafia game where that came up and I can't really think of a situation where that would come up, so I can't really comment on it. - communicating with the dead: absolutely not. This obviously can't be enforced but it should pretty much be rule #1 to adhere to for any mafia game, because if you don't you're kind of a dick. Forwarding GM message should be forbidden (and hence why I don't do it). Imagine. I'm an innocent citizen of Bumblefuck, June. Nothing stops me from forwarding my innocent citizen message to everyone in the game. Yes, the mafia will probably kill me, however, everybody else has no danger of forwarding their message to me. I connect the innocents, and voilà, game over. Yikes, I've never even thought of that. Clearly I lack in criminal energy. I'll still stick with my "it should be allowed" because I can't really see many people doing this nor it really working in the timeframe you'd have before you get killed. No. You shouldn't be able to vote 'no lynch'. Abstaining from voting is fine if that is what you want to do. If 5 people vote to kill Elderberry and 6 people vote 'no lynch', you're not abstaining from voting, you're preventing other people from having their votes counted.
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Дьяково
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Post by Дьяково on May 13, 2014 22:11:47 GMT
I'll just repost what I said in the other thread: I think sending screenshots and/or forwarding messages is completely fine behind the scenes. After all, the townies have to find each other somehow, which, if you aren't the investigator, could take forever. But if you're reasonably sure that someone is innocent and you want to contact them, you'll usually need some kind of proof to show them you're not mafia. As for the other stuff listed in the poll: - voting no lynch: of course it should be allowed. I find it as annoying as the next person if there's round after round of no lynching, or if the majority of players goes for "no lynch" just to look nice and innocent while letting a handful of others do the dirty work. But sometimes you genuinely might want to abstain from voting to lynch for whatever reasons. Also, I don't like lynching without anything to go on, so I would have no qualms not to lynch in the first round. - voting for self: I've never been in a mafia game where that came up and I can't really think of a situation where that would come up, so I can't really comment on it. - communicating with the dead: absolutely not. This obviously can't be enforced but it should pretty much be rule #1 to adhere to for any mafia game, because if you don't you're kind of a dick. Yikes, I've never even thought of that. Clearly I lack in criminal energy. I'll still stick with my "it should be allowed" because I can't really see many people doing this nor it really working in the timeframe you'd have before you get killed. No. You shouldn't be able to vote 'no lynch'. Abstaining from voting is fine if that is what you want to do. If 5 people vote to kill Elderberry and 6 people vote 'no lynch', you're not abstaining from voting, you're preventing other people from having their votes counted. Good point. I didn't think of it that way...
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Post by whereyouthinkyoupoliying on May 13, 2014 22:24:52 GMT
No. You shouldn't be able to vote 'no lynch'. Abstaining from voting is fine if that is what you want to do. If 5 people vote to kill Elderberry and 6 people vote 'no lynch', you're not abstaining from voting, you're preventing other people from having their votes counted. Oh, then I misunderstood. I meant just not voting to lynch anyone.
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on May 13, 2014 22:33:07 GMT
No. You shouldn't be able to vote 'no lynch'. Abstaining from voting is fine if that is what you want to do. If 5 people vote to kill Elderberry and 6 people vote 'no lynch', you're not abstaining from voting, you're preventing other people from having their votes counted. Oh, then I misunderstood. I meant just not voting to lynch anyone. Ah, I see. We've had games in the past where no lynch has happened because more people voted for it than voted for one particular victim, so that is where I am coming from. Absolutely agree that you don't have to vote and when I ran my game, lynch vote cut-off was enforced even if not every player had voted (I gave them 48 hours to vote, so I wasn't being unfair).
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Дьяково
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Post by Дьяково on May 13, 2014 22:37:33 GMT
Oh, then I misunderstood. I meant just not voting to lynch anyone. Ah, I see. We've had games in the past where no lynch has happened because more people voted for it than voted for one particular victim, so that is where I am coming from. Absolutely agree that you don't have to vote and when I ran my game, lynch vote cut-off was enforced even if not every player had voted (I gave them 48 hours to vote, so I wasn't being unfair). I've been doing the same. 48 hours seems like its plenty of time to get a vore in, even when it seems like for the first 24 no-one ever wants to vote...
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on May 13, 2014 22:45:05 GMT
Yeah, it's silly.
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Post by jello on May 13, 2014 23:34:48 GMT
I've been doing the same. 48 hours seems like its plenty of time to get a vore in, even when it seems like for the first 24 no-one ever wants to vote... You run the risk of drawing attention to yourself if you're the first to vote. It's a risk that needs to be taken, but it seems to be the reason why people hesitate.
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panicberry
7500+
Phantom of the Opera
God save the Berry!
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Post by panicberry on May 14, 2014 1:03:33 GMT
I'll just repost what I said in the other thread: I think sending screenshots and/or forwarding messages is completely fine behind the scenes. After all, the townies have to find each other somehow, which, if you aren't the investigator, could take forever. But if you're reasonably sure that someone is innocent and you want to contact them, you'll usually need some kind of proof to show them you're not mafia. As for the other stuff listed in the poll: - voting no lynch: of course it should be allowed. I find it as annoying as the next person if there's round after round of no lynching, or if the majority of players goes for "no lynch" just to look nice and innocent while letting a handful of others do the dirty work. But sometimes you genuinely might want to abstain from voting to lynch for whatever reasons. Also, I don't like lynching without anything to go on, so I would have no qualms not to lynch in the first round. - voting for self: I've never been in a mafia game where that came up and I can't really think of a situation where that would come up, so I can't really comment on it. - communicating with the dead: absolutely not. This obviously can't be enforced but it should pretty much be rule #1 to adhere to for any mafia game, because if you don't you're kind of a dick. Yikes, I've never even thought of that. Clearly I lack in criminal energy. I'll still stick with my "it should be allowed" because I can't really see many people doing this nor it really working in the timeframe you'd have before you get killed. No. You shouldn't be able to vote 'no lynch'. Abstaining from voting is fine if that is what you want to do. If 5 people vote to kill Elderberry and 6 people vote 'no lynch', you're not abstaining from voting, you're preventing other people from having their votes counted. I've had remarkable luck in not being lynched after my first game. In fact, I've not been outright lynched once since my first game back in September. At any rate, Vote Pope Elderberry I.
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on May 14, 2014 1:30:08 GMT
No. You shouldn't be able to vote 'no lynch'. Abstaining from voting is fine if that is what you want to do. If 5 people vote to kill Elderberry and 6 people vote 'no lynch', you're not abstaining from voting, you're preventing other people from having their votes counted. I've had remarkable luck in not being lynched after my first game. In fact, I've not been outright lynched once since my first game back in September. At any rate, Vote Pope Elderberry I.Your "luck" is kinda self-fabricated.
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panicberry
7500+
Phantom of the Opera
God save the Berry!
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Post by panicberry on May 14, 2014 1:57:46 GMT
I've had remarkable luck in not being lynched after my first game. In fact, I've not been outright lynched once since my first game back in September. At any rate, Vote Pope Elderberry I.Your "luck" is kinda self-fabricated. Clearly the first game was a sinister plot to lull everyone into believing I was a useless, naive player capable of no subterfuge.
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TSM
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Post by TSM on May 14, 2014 4:22:16 GMT
I'll just repost what I said in the other thread: I think sending screenshots and/or forwarding messages is completely fine behind the scenes. After all, the townies have to find each other somehow, which, if you aren't the investigator, could take forever. But if you're reasonably sure that someone is innocent and you want to contact them, you'll usually need some kind of proof to show them you're not mafia. As for the other stuff listed in the poll: - voting no lynch: of course it should be allowed. I find it as annoying as the next person if there's round after round of no lynching, or if the majority of players goes for "no lynch" just to look nice and innocent while letting a handful of others do the dirty work. But sometimes you genuinely might want to abstain from voting to lynch for whatever reasons. Also, I don't like lynching without anything to go on, so I would have no qualms not to lynch in the first round. - voting for self: I've never been in a mafia game where that came up and I can't really think of a situation where that would come up, so I can't really comment on it. - communicating with the dead: absolutely not. This obviously can't be enforced but it should pretty much be rule #1 to adhere to for any mafia game, because if you don't you're kind of a dick. Yikes, I've never even thought of that. Clearly I lack in criminal energy. I'll still stick with my "it should be allowed" because I can't really see many people doing this nor it really working in the timeframe you'd have before you get killed. No. You shouldn't be able to vote 'no lynch'. Abstaining from voting is fine if that is what you want to do. If 5 people vote to kill Elderberry and 6 people vote 'no lynch', you're not abstaining from voting, you're preventing other people from having their votes counted. That's the point though...
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on May 14, 2014 4:37:11 GMT
No. You shouldn't be able to vote 'no lynch'. Abstaining from voting is fine if that is what you want to do. If 5 people vote to kill Elderberry and 6 people vote 'no lynch', you're not abstaining from voting, you're preventing other people from having their votes counted. That's the point though... The point is to mask other people's votes?
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TSM
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Post by TSM on May 14, 2014 7:22:23 GMT
Nah, the point is that if some members of the village are trying to lynch someone but the other members are unconvinced, they can overrule the lynching members without having to lynch someone else. So, say, if the mafia tries to bandwagon together and take someone out, the other villagers could vote no lynch if they weren't confident they had another target. Or, if there's a role that gains powers via lynching, voting no lynch can deny them that power without the risk of a single villager ruining everything by voting. It basically just adds another dimension to the game and isn't biased in favour of either the mafia or the villagers.
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on May 14, 2014 7:45:47 GMT
I disagree with your apparent premise that is it fair. In any case even for townies choosing not to lynch is an extremely poor tactic, since it gives the mafia a metaphorical leg up.
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