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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 22:36:37 GMT
I'm still pretty much a newbie to the forums, seeing as how I'm only a few months in, and I was never around for whatever fiascos may or may not have happened over the usage of certain terms, but all I can really say is this: We're all (mostly) adults here, or at least, we can act like ones, right? Surely we won't stoop to the level of adolescents and will be able to use some words appropriately without filters, right? But then again, I wasn't part of such a fiasco. So do what you must, I suppose. And in what context might it be 'appropriate' to verbatim use a highly offensive slur? I honestly can't think of any situation where it is needful. An educational context, perhaps. I mean, again, we're all mature adults here. We're (hopefully) not going to be slinging around slurs around at each other, right? |
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on Jun 9, 2014 22:38:34 GMT
And in what context might it be 'appropriate' to verbatim use a highly offensive slur? I honestly can't think of any situation where it is needful. An educational context, perhaps. I mean, again, we're all mature adults here. We're (hopefully) not going to be slinging around slurs around at each other, right? An educational context? Can you give an example please? |
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Post by Дьяково on Jun 9, 2014 22:47:41 GMT
An educational context, perhaps. I mean, again, we're all mature adults here. We're (hopefully) not going to be slinging around slurs around at each other, right? An educational context? Can you give an example please? A thread about the etymology of various slurs? |
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Post by The Cat-Tribe on Jun 9, 2014 22:48:26 GMT
So that means we cannot ever revisit the subject?
One point I mean to add. I understand and agree that, for example, the c-word is a slur that causes offense and should not be used. But I am not convinced that "c-word" or "c*nt" are substantively different. As the filters can be avoided with all of us still knowing what offensive slur was used, the filters seem rather juvenile.
I thought they were amusing originally. They have grown tiresome and I do not see the purpose among mature TBC members.
Oh ok, you have convinced me of your maturity by implying that I am juvenile. That is not what I meant, but I apologize for causing offense. I was referring to the practice of using filters and not to you or to anyone that supports them. Nonetheless, I am sorry. (I seem to saying that a lot lately. I need to be more careful or step away for awhile.) You can discuss it all you like, that is exactly what we are doing now. I just don't see why the decision would be overturned at this juncture more than at any other.
I understand. I never participated in the discussion of filters before, so perhaps I am treading old ground. But I do not see why there has to be a specific event to reconsider.
Regardless, this was triggered by the new (or relatively new) addition of "femin*zi" to the filters with a humorous, but biased replacement that does not even indicate there was a filter applied. Although I find that term highly offensive, I object to that filter and it prompted me to raise the issue of filters in general.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 22:51:58 GMT
An educational context, perhaps. I mean, again, we're all mature adults here. We're (hopefully) not going to be slinging around slurs around at each other, right? An educational context? Can you give an example please? The quite recent debate on the usage and history behind the word "redneck", which although is not as 'harsh' a slur as the n-word, still carries negative historical and modern meanings, and this could be applied to any other slur in which one could debate or educate others about a slur's history and meaning. |
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on Jun 9, 2014 22:52:06 GMT
An educational context? Can you give an example please? A thread about the etymology of various slurs? Something which seems like a rather remote possibility, in context. 
Oh ok, you have convinced me of your maturity by implying that I am juvenile. That is not what I meant, but I apologize for causing offense. I was referring to the practice of using filters and not to you or to anyone that supports them. Nonetheless, I am sorry. (I seem to saying that a lot lately. I need to be more careful or step away for awhile.) You can discuss it all you like, that is exactly what we are doing now. I just don't see why the decision would be overturned at this juncture more than at any other.
I understand. I never participated in the discussion of filters before, so perhaps I am treading old ground. But I do not see why there has to be a specific event to reconsider.
Regardless, this was triggered by the new (or relatively new) addition of "femin*zi" to the filters with a humorous, but biased replacement that does not even indicate there was a filter applied. Although I find that term highly offensive, I object to that filter and it prompted me to raise the issue of filters in general.
Reading your reference thread, I didn't realise that the replacement word itself was offensive. Perhaps it should be more transparently filtered, as many other slurs are. "Holy misogyny, Batman!", anyone?  |
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on Jun 9, 2014 22:54:16 GMT
An educational context? Can you give an example please? The quite recent debate on the usage and history behind the word "redneck", which although is not as 'harsh' a slur as the n-word, still carries negative historical and modern meanings, and this could be applied to any other slur in which one could debate or educate others about a slur's history and meaning. If you truly wanted to do that, would it really be an impediment to type "c-word" and thereafter "c" or some such permutation thereof? |
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Post by The Cat-Tribe on Jun 9, 2014 23:00:30 GMT
I'm still pretty much a newbie to the forums, seeing as how I'm only a few months in, and I was never around for whatever fiascos may or may not have happened over the usage of certain terms, but all I can really say is this: We're all (mostly) adults here, or at least, we can act like ones, right? Surely we won't stoop to the level of adolescents and will be able to use some words appropriately without filters, right? But then again, I wasn't part of such a fiasco. So do what you must, I suppose. And in what context might it be 'appropriate' to verbatim use a highly offensive slur? I honestly can't think of any situation where it is needful. I do not think the question is or should be "why do you need to use that word?"
I think the question is "what is the appropriate response to someone using that word" or "is there really a risk that a TBC member is going to use such a word to cause offense or after others have educated them about it being offensive"?
Also, why is using a word with an asterisk or other flimsy disguise so much better than it being used verbatim? How does that make the word acceptable?
Which is fine! And I didn't mean to imply that you were, my apologies for doing so. On the subject at hand though, I don't think we should filter words like faminazi. It's unnecessary. I also tentatively support eliminating, or at least cutting down on our filters, but I think we'd need the full list to see. Is that something that's easily accessible Poli Dipshit ? I agree that particular slur is less offensive than certain others which I know are filtered.
EDIT: Having said that, I would be curious to know in what context people would consider it imperative to discussion.
See, although some slurs are clearly less offensive than others, the exact hierarchy of offensiveness of slurs is far, far less clear -- particularly among a relatively large group of individuals from different cultures and countries. Other than simply deferring to the Admins, how can we reasonably decide one slur gets filtered and another not filtered?
And, if we are going to defer to the Admins, then objecting to some filters and not others becomes fairly biased and arbitrary.
An educational context, perhaps. I mean, again, we're all mature adults here. We're (hopefully) not going to be slinging around slurs around at each other, right? An educational context? Can you give an example please? Educating others as to what we consider a slur and why it should not be used. We have at least one thread about that on a specific subject. The word does not happen to be filtered, but some feel directly targeted and are offended by it and others of us are also offended. We have (I think) successfully persuaded several others to avoid or at least use care in using the slur.
Having the word filtered would have made the discussion slightly more clumsy, but we all would have simply used a minor alteration for the word. That to me is what seems pointless, annoying, counter-productive, a bit offensive itself, and ultimately silly.
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Post by The Cat-Tribe on Jun 9, 2014 23:03:46 GMT
*snip* snip* Regardless, this was triggered by the new (or relatively new) addition of "femin*zi" to the filters with a humorous, but biased replacement that does not even indicate there was a filter applied. Although I find that term highly offensive, I object to that filter and it prompted me to raise the issue of filters in general.
Reading your reference thread, I didn't realise that the replacement word itself was offensive. Perhaps it should be more transparently filtered, as many other slurs are. "Holy misogyny, Batman!", anyone? You probably did not realize that because I only raised it in a tangential manner that was clear as mud.  |
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Post by Dipshit on Jun 9, 2014 23:05:29 GMT
You all forget the primary purpose of the word filters and the specific one tct mentions. My amusement.
My amusement. No, seriously. It's there because I found it funny. Wasnt a broader forum decision other then it makes me chuckle.
The word filters for serious purposes was more Poli's initiative than mine and she's on a plane right now, so I fear we may not have her perspective til tomorrow.
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on Jun 9, 2014 23:08:10 GMT
And in what context might it be 'appropriate' to verbatim use a highly offensive slur? I honestly can't think of any situation where it is needful. I do not think the question is or should be "why do you need to use that word?"
I think the question is "what is the appropriate response to someone using that word" or "is there really a risk that a TBC member is going to use such a word to cause offense or after others have educated them about it being offensive"?
Also, why is using a word with an asterisk or other flimsy disguise so much better than it being used verbatim? How does that make the word acceptable?
I agree that particular slur is less offensive than certain others which I know are filtered.
EDIT: Having said that, I would be curious to know in what context people would consider it imperative to discussion.
See, although some slurs are clearly less offensive than others, the exact hierarchy of offensiveness of slurs is far, far less clear -- particularly among a relatively large group of individuals from different cultures and countries. Other than simply deferring to the Admins, how can we reasonably decide one slur gets filtered and another not filtered?
And, if we are going to defer to the Admins, then objecting to some filters and not others becomes fairly biased and arbitrary.
An educational context? Can you give an example please? Educating others as to what we consider a slur and why it should not be used. We have at least one thread about that on a specific subject. The word does not happen to be filtered, but some feel directly targeted and are offended by it and others of us are also offended. We have (I think) successfully persuaded several others to avoid or at least use care in using the slur.
Having the word filtered would have made the discussion slightly more clumsy, but we all would have simply used a minor alteration for the word. That to me is what seems pointless, annoying, counter-productive, a bit offensive itself, and ultimately silly.
As far as I am concerned, it's less grating to be a little veiling in one's referencing of the offensive word because I don't mentally verbalise it as the offensive word.
I'm not arguing for less filters, that's you.
We managed to educated people perfectly fine without actually using the literal word in the thread I linked.
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Post by Oviraptor on Jun 9, 2014 23:09:12 GMT
I'm still pretty much a newbie to the forums, seeing as how I'm only a few months in, and I was never around for whatever fiascos may or may not have happened over the usage of certain terms, but all I can really say is this: We're all (mostly) adults here, or at least, we can act like ones, right? Surely we won't stoop to the level of adolescents and will be able to use some words appropriately without filters, right? But then again, I wasn't part of such a fiasco. So do what you must, I suppose. And in what context might it be 'appropriate' to verbatim use a highly offensive slur? I honestly can't think of any situation where it is needful. Discussions about the origins and relative offensiveness of slurs. I believe we have one going on now. Edit: Sorry, missed the second page. |
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on Jun 9, 2014 23:10:21 GMT
And in what context might it be 'appropriate' to verbatim use a highly offensive slur? I honestly can't think of any situation where it is needful. Discussions about the origins and relative offensiveness of slurs. I believe we have one going on now. And again, we are having this discussion without using the literal slur! |
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Post by Oviraptor on Jun 9, 2014 23:12:04 GMT
Discussions about the origins and relative offensiveness of slurs. I believe we have one going on now. And again, we are having this discussion without using the literal slur! But why? What reason is there for the filters? The way I see it, it's less that there are convincing arguments against filters and more that there are none (that I can see) in their favour. |
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Post by The Cat-Tribe on Jun 9, 2014 23:12:42 GMT
You all forget the primary purpose of the word filters and the specific one tct mentions. My amusement. My amusement. No, seriously. It's there because I found it funny. Wasnt a broader forum decision other then it makes me chuckle. The word filters for serious purposes was more Poli's initiative than mine and she's on a plane right now, so I fear we may not have her perspective til tomorrow. Understood.
You just have a shitty sense of humor.
I've said more than I needed to on a more serious note. I fully understand why others disagree. I'll be interested in what others may say, but will likely stay silent for at least a while.
Then we can hear from She Who Must Be Obeyed.
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Post by The Cat-Tribe on Jun 9, 2014 23:15:17 GMT
Discussions about the origins and relative offensiveness of slurs. I believe we have one going on now. And again, we are having this discussion without using the literal slur! Depending to which slur you are referring, we do not have a choice. Instead, we all know what slurs we are discussing, they are in our heads, and we are merely using slight alterations to avoid the filters. |
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on Jun 9, 2014 23:17:35 GMT
And again, we are having this discussion without using the literal slur! But why? What reason is there for the filters? The way I see it, it's less that there are convincing arguments against filters and more that there are none (that I can see) in their favour.
Well if you don't understand my objections to seeing such words after reading this discussion, I am not sure what to say to you. Seeing that and certain other slurs bandied around would significantly reduce my enjoyment of TBC, and while I cannot speak for anyone else, I am sure I am not alone in that.
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on Jun 9, 2014 23:19:26 GMT
And again, we are having this discussion without using the literal slur! Depending to which slur you are referring, we do not have a choice. Instead, we all know what slurs we are discussing, they are in our heads, and we are merely using slight alterations to avoid the filters. And yet, we are still managing to effectively share our perspectives. |
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Post by Oviraptor on Jun 9, 2014 23:22:48 GMT
But why? What reason is there for the filters? The way I see it, it's less that there are convincing arguments against filters and more that there are none (that I can see) in their favour.
Well if you don't understand my objections to seeing such words after reading this discussion, I am not sure what to say to you. Seeing that and certain other slurs bandied around would significantly reduce my enjoyment of TBC, and while I cannot speak for anyone else, I am sure I am not alone in that.
Oh, I understand that completely and I wouldn't want such a thing to happen to you or anyone. I think TBC should be a comfortable place for everyone insofar as is possible. But I just don't believe that people would use words they knew offended people that much, liberally or otherwise. As I noted a few minutes ago in General Chitchat, we have a polite and accommodating atmosphere here and I don't think that's going to stop because of a lack of filters. I think that if a word bothers someone, they could reasonably ask for it not to be used and people would comply. |
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on Jun 9, 2014 23:35:49 GMT
Well if you don't understand my objections to seeing such words after reading this discussion, I am not sure what to say to you. Seeing that and certain other slurs bandied around would significantly reduce my enjoyment of TBC, and while I cannot speak for anyone else, I am sure I am not alone in that.
Oh, I understand that completely and I wouldn't want such a thing to happen to you or anyone. I think TBC should be a comfortable place for everyone insofar as is possible. But I just don't believe that people would use words they knew offended people that much, liberally or otherwise. As I noted a few minutes ago in General Chitchat, we have a polite and accommodating atmosphere here and I don't think that's going to stop because of a lack of filters. I think that if a word bothers someone, they could reasonably ask for it not to be used and people would comply. Most people probably would comply, yes. But do we have to explain piecemeal to everyone why a word is offensive? What if they don't agree and continue to use it anyway? |
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Post by Oviraptor on Jun 9, 2014 23:40:08 GMT
Oh, I understand that completely and I wouldn't want such a thing to happen to you or anyone. I think TBC should be a comfortable place for everyone insofar as is possible. But I just don't believe that people would use words they knew offended people that much, liberally or otherwise. As I noted a few minutes ago in General Chitchat, we have a polite and accommodating atmosphere here and I don't think that's going to stop because of a lack of filters. I think that if a word bothers someone, they could reasonably ask for it not to be used and people would comply. Most people probably would comply, yes. But do we have to explain piecemeal to everyone why a word is offensive? What if they don't agree and continue to use it anyway? I don't believe anyone would do that. We've never had any problems like that as long as I've been here. And if they for some reason did? Well, someone could talk to NA or Poli and they'd probably discuss it with the involved parties and come to a solution. That's the real reason I object to filters. We've always worked things out here by discussion and consensus. We're all pretty mature, so it works. Why not do that for offensive words too? |
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on Jun 9, 2014 23:48:08 GMT
Most people probably would comply, yes. But do we have to explain piecemeal to everyone why a word is offensive? What if they don't agree and continue to use it anyway? I don't believe anyone would do that. We've never had any problems like that as long as I've been here. And if they for some reason did? Well, someone could talk to NA or Poli and they'd probably discuss it with the involved parties and come to a solution. That's the real reason I object to filters. We've always worked things out here by discussion and consensus. We're all pretty mature, so it works. Why not do that for offensive words too? As has been brought up already in this discussion, for some people it's really not obvious why a word is offensive. It took a lot of explaining, with entire threads devoted to the discussion of the c-word and the Southerners discussion. |
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Post by Oviraptor on Jun 9, 2014 23:55:11 GMT
I don't believe anyone would do that. We've never had any problems like that as long as I've been here. And if they for some reason did? Well, someone could talk to NA or Poli and they'd probably discuss it with the involved parties and come to a solution. That's the real reason I object to filters. We've always worked things out here by discussion and consensus. We're all pretty mature, so it works. Why not do that for offensive words too? As has been brought up already in this discussion, for some people it's really not obvious why a word is offensive. It took a lot of explaining, with entire threads devoted to the discussion of the c-word and the Southerners discussion. That wasn't a specific thing about members feeling uncomfortable, it was just a general disussion (I think; correct me if I'm wrong). I foresee it working like the application vetoing process. You don't always have to explain yourself, and when you do it's just to the mods. We've managed something similar before. Why not this? |
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on Jun 10, 2014 0:01:15 GMT
As has been brought up already in this discussion, for some people it's really not obvious why a word is offensive. It took a lot of explaining, with entire threads devoted to the discussion of the c-word and the Southerners discussion. That wasn't a specific thing about members feeling uncomfortable, it was just a general disussion (I think; correct me if I'm wrong). I foresee it working like the application vetoing process. You don't always have to explain yourself, and when you do it's just to the mods. We've managed something similar before. Why not this? Well I didn't read the latter thread, the former was a discussion on why it was censored and ergo why people feel uncomfortable with it. So you are proposing that I can tell a person that I don't like a word, without any explanation, and they will stop using it? Why would nightkill have created that thread in the first place if he was content to drop the issue to easily? |
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Post by Oviraptor on Jun 10, 2014 0:11:39 GMT
That wasn't a specific thing about members feeling uncomfortable, it was just a general disussion (I think; correct me if I'm wrong). I foresee it working like the application vetoing process. You don't always have to explain yourself, and when you do it's just to the mods. We've managed something similar before. Why not this? Well I didn't read the latter thread, the former was a discussion on why it was censored and ergo why people feel uncomfortable with it. So you are proposing that I can tell a person that I don't like a word, without any explanation, and they will stop using it? Why would nightkill have created that thread in the first place if he was content to drop the issue to easily? No, I'm proposing that we set up a system whereby people can "veto" words that really make them uncomfortable, similar to the application process. And like the application process, it could be discussed and absolute vetoes would only be used in extreme cases and mods would talk it over with the objecting poster if necessary. It would be fairly informal, keeping with TBC norms. Just a kind of "yo everyone this really bothers me can you stop using it". Mods might ask for a PM'd reason if necessary, then everyone stops using it. What I'm proposing (which is highly imperfect because I came up with it half an hour ago and I'm editing on the fly) is actually identical to the filters, just with more engagement and instead of a script we use ourselves. |
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on Jun 10, 2014 0:13:49 GMT
Well I didn't read the latter thread, the former was a discussion on why it was censored and ergo why people feel uncomfortable with it. So you are proposing that I can tell a person that I don't like a word, without any explanation, and they will stop using it? Why would nightkill have created that thread in the first place if he was content to drop the issue to easily? No, I'm proposing that we set up a system whereby people can "veto" words that really make them uncomfortable, similar to the application process. And like the application process, it could be discussed and absolute vetoes would only be used in extreme cases and mods would talk it over with the objecting poster if necessary. It would be fairly informal, keeping with TBC norms. Just a kind of "yo everyone this really bothers me can you stop using it". Mods might ask for a PM'd reason if necessary, then everyone stops using it. What I'm proposing (which is highly imperfect because I came up with it half an hour ago and I'm editing on the fly) is actually identical to the filters, just with more engagement and instead of a script we use ourselves. Sounds arduous, and possibly unnecessary. Even without having a full list of the censored words, I can think of several I'd put on that list right now. |
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Post by Дьяково on Jun 10, 2014 0:15:16 GMT
Most people probably would comply, yes. But do we have to explain piecemeal to everyone why a word is offensive? What if they don't agree and continue to use it anyway? I don't believe anyone would do that. We've never had any problems like that as long as I've been here. And if they for some reason did? Well, someone could talk to NA or Poli and they'd probably discuss it with the involved parties and come to a solution. That's the real reason I object to filters. We've always worked things out here by discussion and consensus. We're all pretty mature, so it works. Why not do that for offensive words too? We actually have had the issue, specifically with the c-word. |
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Post by Oviraptor on Jun 10, 2014 0:16:43 GMT
No, I'm proposing that we set up a system whereby people can "veto" words that really make them uncomfortable, similar to the application process. And like the application process, it could be discussed and absolute vetoes would only be used in extreme cases and mods would talk it over with the objecting poster if necessary. It would be fairly informal, keeping with TBC norms. Just a kind of "yo everyone this really bothers me can you stop using it". Mods might ask for a PM'd reason if necessary, then everyone stops using it. What I'm proposing (which is highly imperfect because I came up with it half an hour ago and I'm editing on the fly) is actually identical to the filters, just with more engagement and instead of a script we use ourselves. Sounds arduous, and possibly unnecessary. Even without having a full list of the censored words, I can think of several I'd put on that list right now. If it's unnecessary then so are the filters, because it accomplishes the same thing. The only changes I've made are the removal of an actual computerised filter, and the inclusion of a submissions process (which would make sense even if we keep the current filters). |
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Post by Дьяково on Jun 10, 2014 0:17:26 GMT
No, I'm proposing that we set up a system whereby people can "veto" words that really make them uncomfortable, similar to the application process. And like the application process, it could be discussed and absolute vetoes would only be used in extreme cases and mods would talk it over with the objecting poster if necessary. It would be fairly informal, keeping with TBC norms. Just a kind of "yo everyone this really bothers me can you stop using it". Mods might ask for a PM'd reason if necessary, then everyone stops using it. What I'm proposing (which is highly imperfect because I came up with it half an hour ago and I'm editing on the fly) is actually identical to the filters, just with more engagement and instead of a script we use ourselves. Sounds arduous, and possibly unnecessary. Even without having a full list of the censored words, I can think of several I'd put on that list right now. Like kawaiiness. *nods* |
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Post by Oviraptor on Jun 10, 2014 0:18:05 GMT
I don't believe anyone would do that. We've never had any problems like that as long as I've been here. And if they for some reason did? Well, someone could talk to NA or Poli and they'd probably discuss it with the involved parties and come to a solution. That's the real reason I object to filters. We've always worked things out here by discussion and consensus. We're all pretty mature, so it works. Why not do that for offensive words too? We actually have had the issue, specifically with the c-word. Really? Huh. It clearly went over my head. I assumed that some people said it bothered them and everyone else said "okay" and stopped using it. What actually happened? |
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