Wikkiwallana
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Post by Wikkiwallana on Jul 13, 2016 2:10:24 GMT
So, what you're saying is I could get myself a big sack of dust in Aegea, teleport into Valcand, and rule with an iron fist? Well you certainly could try, but if you think Valcand hasn't already dealt with one hundred equally minded mages, um no. Basically every capital that is advanced enough to be worth conquering will also be advanced enough to know how to make that plan infeasible - most of them by employing weirdstones (250,000 gold is a barrier to an average player, and average ruler however can afford the cost) to prevent teleporting into the city directly, or the less prosperous ones by building cities directly on areas where magic energy is too concentrated to teleport (Valcand, incidentally, did both in varying forms. The capital has a weirdstone, while the major forts are purposefully built in places and in such a manner as to stop would-be teleporting conquerors). Similarly, every major deity that has a central holy site, whether a cathedral, mountain, forest, what have you, has a High Priest capable of casting Forbiddance on the area. There's also the issue that even with a large sack of dust from Aegea, you still would be dealing with an entire nation and their army and eventually you'll be too fatigued to cast spells, at which point you are a squishy wizard surrounded by people with advanced weapons. That ends poorly. Forgot about the fatigue mechanic. That said, where did I say I'd be starting at the capital? I would find some nice little out of the way spot within reasonable magical travel distance of a few useful targets, say trade routes or mines, where I would set up a nicely discrete lair with a permanent teleportation circle to get me to and from my dust gathering site. From there, launch raids and start holding territory for ransom. And of course, disguises and summons and lackeys, plus different modus operandi at each target, all to obscure that there's a single force behind the attacks.
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panicberry
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Post by panicberry on Jul 13, 2016 3:23:40 GMT
Well you certainly could try, but if you think Valcand hasn't already dealt with one hundred equally minded mages, um no. Basically every capital that is advanced enough to be worth conquering will also be advanced enough to know how to make that plan infeasible - most of them by employing weirdstones (250,000 gold is a barrier to an average player, and average ruler however can afford the cost) to prevent teleporting into the city directly, or the less prosperous ones by building cities directly on areas where magic energy is too concentrated to teleport (Valcand, incidentally, did both in varying forms. The capital has a weirdstone, while the major forts are purposefully built in places and in such a manner as to stop would-be teleporting conquerors). Similarly, every major deity that has a central holy site, whether a cathedral, mountain, forest, what have you, has a High Priest capable of casting Forbiddance on the area. There's also the issue that even with a large sack of dust from Aegea, you still would be dealing with an entire nation and their army and eventually you'll be too fatigued to cast spells, at which point you are a squishy wizard surrounded by people with advanced weapons. That ends poorly. Forgot about the fatigue mechanic. That said, where did I say I'd be starting at the capital? I would find some nice little out of the way spot within reasonable magical travel distance of a few useful targets, say trade routes or mines, where I would set up a nicely discrete lair with a permanent teleportation circle to get me to and from my dust gathering site. From there, launch raids and start holding territory for ransom. And of course, disguises and summons and lackeys, plus different modus operandi at each target, all to obscure that there's a single force behind the attacks. Well, that's a reasonable thing to say but that's still a pretty far step from ruling with an iron fist. And really, Valcand wouldn't be the best target for that because they actually give a shit about territorial integrity and would be fully willing to cross lines other nations would not to ensure that no one is inside their borders that they don't want. It'd be far more effective to take the southern peninsula of Kydoimos and raid the trading lanes that pass nearby (particularly Khasut-Covisbury routes, since those are likely to not only have great wealth but also regular shipments of dust) because Kydoimos is still more a collection of clans than an effective and independent state and thus wouldn't really give a shit if someone took part of the peninsula (provided, of course, that they don't affect the main settlements and probably helps if you are a minotaur, maybe a centaur, because the Kydoimosi actually would respect a minotaur that conquered the southern peninsula and raided ships passing through and would be largely indifferent to a centaur). Valcand doesn't like magicians, they are much more ambivalent about exploiting magic. This is a realm that would choose magic if and only if technology could not do the same, but in those cases they'll use very controlled magic.
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Wikkiwallana
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Post by Wikkiwallana on Jul 13, 2016 3:33:37 GMT
Ruling with an iron fist is the endgame, not step one. But thank you for the information about choice of target.
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panicberry
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Post by panicberry on Jul 13, 2016 4:03:46 GMT
I mean, I'd be all fucking for someone RPing that they slowly take over the world. But really, start by building up a base in Kydoimos, or in the colonies, and then probably just install yourself in Pamphylia where the ruling government is weak and ineffectual and survives solely because no other nation gives a shit. Annex Malvinies at the first opportunity, start raiding Schfama, and eventually you can unite the eastern coast (maybe including the Mogiae? Depends how many waves of mercenaries you think you can destroy/buy off) at which point Aegea is blockaded and vulnerable, which should be enough of a base to take Covisbury and Verlucia. Of course, you'll probably be branded a heretic and the Knights of Svarog tend to do well at crushing such attempts, not to mention that fucking with Verlucia will surely bring in Pelion, the Hauxi, and Kelaineus's priests, but if you can take Covisbury it doesn't matter much. That place is all that stands between the Aburian interior and shortages of even basic materials.
I think I'll post next on the Knights of Svarog, incidentally, and also the Oathbearers and the Iron Inquisitors. Suffice to say, major churches tend to wield their own armies and don't shy from using them so careful with what religious artifacts and holy sights you disturb while taking over the world.
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Wikkiwallana
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Post by Wikkiwallana on Jul 13, 2016 5:14:20 GMT
Given that this is D&D, where the gods can come down and personally punch you in the face if you piss them off enough, I'd probably take the Genghis Khan approach of "Churches and religions can continue doing whatever, as long as they give a small tithe to me, it's the civic leaders I care about".
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Wikkiwallana
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Post by Wikkiwallana on Jul 13, 2016 5:19:11 GMT
Also, I probably wouldn't go for trying to conquer the whole world. That attracts too much attention. But a nice little autocracy that's big enough that the major players don't just look at me and say "ooh, free territory up for grabs", yet small enough that I'm not considered a threat that needs dealing with, and can support my lavish decadence without making things so awful for the subjects that I get an infestation of paladins trying to topple me. It's a narrow sweet spot, but I think it could be done.
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panicberry
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Post by panicberry on Jul 13, 2016 14:40:41 GMT
Also, I probably wouldn't go for trying to conquer the whole world. That attracts too much attention. But a nice little autocracy that's big enough that the major players don't just look at me and say "ooh, free territory up for grabs", yet small enough that I'm not considered a threat that needs dealing with, and can support my lavish decadence without making things so awful for the subjects that I get an infestation of paladins trying to topple me. It's a narrow sweet spot, but I think it could be done. That would, incidentally, be exactly the spot Malvinies and Pamphylia are in. It's like the Malta and Rhodes of the world, sure they are theoretically useful and they might be near very wealthy territory, but the effort to take and hold those regions is less than the value of those regions to major states. That's also why both are corrupt as all hell.
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panicberry
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Post by panicberry on Aug 16, 2016 14:46:24 GMT
Alright, so I had a bit of diversion finishing courses and hating life and dealing with the utter fuckery that is my coworkers, but here's a post!
Let's go back to religion, shall we? Historically, the relationship between church and state was highly varied and very dependent on location and church. There are some, like the Catholic Church, which held not only a temporal post and temporal power but also sought control and influence over other temporal realms. That, along with Sunni Islam, represent the greatest extent of church and state melding. Alternatively, there are cases like Orthodox Christianity which has influence but limited yet is a common tool of the state - especially in Muscovy / Russia and the Byzantines. The realm of Abury, for the most part, has no centralised religion to the extent of the Catholic Church but does have a structure resembling the Orthodox Church - Pentarchies, Tetrarchies, or Triarchies are common, High Priests that are realm-specific are common, and schisms are fairly common. The church struggles to organise around a single priestly leader, in large part because a single priestly leader would need to convince many dueling states of their legitimacy. And, of course, few churches can afford to be independent or even host independent institutions lest their status as universal churches be threatened. As a result, there's only three major independent institutions outside of the assorted clergy: Holle's Iron Inquisitors, Skathi's Oathbearers, and the Sons and Daughters of Svarog. (This, incidentally, is based in the larger nature of Chaos v Law as reinterpreted by the system, which will be the basis of the next post). I'll save the Sons and Daughters for later, as they don't fit as nicely with the purpose of Holle and Skathi's groups.
The Iron Inquisitors, as can be surmised by the name, are a less than benevolent force. Holle has many rules and attempts to enforce them, to an extent that some nations have outright banned the Inquisitors (Valcand being the most notable). The basic service of them is to apprehend those called by the Church of Holle to stand trial, mainly those suspected of tempering with the stability of the planes or the pantheon. While there are many minor crimes identified by Holle - reckless use of dust, hoarding dust, or attacking nymphs - the Church itself focuses on the most notable cases. This can be both helpful and harmful to players, as a villain might be guilty of threatening the existence of a major god but the player's use of magic in response could also be against Holle's orders. But the Iron Inquisitors are a deeply legalistic force and those who can skillfully talk their way out of accusations and who can avoid the penalties for their alleged crimes will be safe from the Inquisitors. They are also used to hunt necromancers that have disturbed the process of souls leaving and being reborn, another potential impediment to both villains and players.
In contrast, the Oathbearers are a very traditionalist approach. They look at laws as being socially agreed upon norms more than strictly codified regulations - murder is wrong because it is wrong, not because a law exists against it. They might even be sympathetic to followers of Kelaineus and their critiques of legal institutions. But the Oathbearers are primarily meant to ensure the sanctity of informal agreements. They hunt those who break contracts or agreements, particularly those who do so without violating laws. A king who betrays an ally to secure a vital resource will soon find himself the target of Oathbearers. Unlike the Inquisitors, who have strict regulations and set targets, the Oathbearers are free to loosely enforce the traditions and informal laws of their realms. Especially trained Oathbearers, many times those who were Oathbearers before their death, will also be trained to ensure that informal rules of the pantheon are enforced - particularly ensuring that souls leave the world and are reformed.
These two are at times cooperative, but there are many cases of Oathbearers demanding reparation from Inquisitors and many cases of Inquisitors forcing Oathbearers to stand trial. They, at heart, represent the divide in how "Lawful" characters are formulated: does a Paladin's devotion to Law come from organisational creeds and dictates, or innate desire to act lawful? Is a personal code of conduct that one does not violate equally as valid a form of law as those made by a state and are those made by the state as valid as those that were informally agreed upon by those inhabiting the state? It's the classic dilemma presented of a land where slavery is legal: does a lawful character abide by the laws allowing slavery, or does the lawful character appeal to a higher form of law, a moral or divine law? Oathbearers believe strongly in individual and communal agreements that are unwritten but known, laws that because of their amorphous nature can be used to stop undesirable activity and prevent loophole abuse. But Inquisitors see ordered, codified laws as necessary to firmly establish what is and is not allowed and remove any ambiguity or lack of authority. Expect both, however, to be at times an ally and at times an enemy of the player.
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panicberry
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Post by panicberry on Oct 22, 2016 22:47:38 GMT
I realise that I'm now two months since my last post. I've been ruminating a few things on how much more there is that actually deserves a post as the major themes are pretty much done. At this point, Abury as a setting is mostly about power and how institutions respond to power. Aegea takes magic, Valcand takes technology. Svarog uses codes and mores to check power, Kebechet ensures power is checked by the finality of death. The whole of the religious institutions and the various locales can be thought to revolve around the central conceits of What is power?, How should power be used?, and How do you respond to rival powers? As a bit of an aside, in my mind there are better terms than lawful, chaotic, good, and evil to use for alignment systems. TSM you might be interested in this as well. I've considered the lawful / chaotic spectrum to kind of be the divide in International Relations about Institutions. Very radical liberal institutionists - the Lawful Goods of IR - think that through proper organisations and institutions, NATO, UN, the like, "bad" behaviour can be eliminated. Create enough powerful groups and you can enforce proper behaviour. That's the mold that Svarog and Damara would agree to - create codes of chivalry, domestic life, diplomatic affairs, and such, everything is solved. Lauma would countre that Ahto's a right bastard and would exploit loopholes and flaws to make those institutions help them (as Russia largely did/does with its veto, or Saudi Arabia and Egypt do with resolutions against Israel), but that other methods of liberalism can work. But the "evil" deities aren't evil per se, they are just Realists (capital R, the distinction is important). They might raid a village, but lots of states do that. Think of Svarog and Damara not necessarily as Lawful Good, but more of "Wilsonian Idealists" and Ahto is more in the manner of Imperialist Britain - they will keep their conduct "civilised" and totally within the bounds of moral/legal behaviour while using those same bounds to destroy rivals with impunity. Then there's a state like Napoleonic France, which is just going to take whatever it feels like without regard for any kind of standards, safe in the knowledge that their rivals are not strong enough to stop them, much like Idaeba's brand of Chaotic Evil. "Evil" is the state that sees a weak neighbour and thinks they would make a wonderful part of their empire, "Good" is the state that sees a weak neighbour and thinks that they are not a threat and thus irrelevant. It's more IR-themed than moralistic and for players this should allow the "evil" varieties a much better chance to plead their case. With all that being said, I'm now mostly doing some flavour stuff that isn't really necessary for the world at large. But I still somewhat want to deal with how advanced this world is not on technology levels (early Middle Ages, even slightly Dark Ages) but rather on institutions. So that will be about it on my end.
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panicberry
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Post by panicberry on Dec 8, 2016 16:48:59 GMT
Institutions, also some bonus stuff!
So this is probably the last full post for a while, because everything beyond this is world flavour and history, not core concepts, but I do want to briefly consider what institutions exist. There's the common Mages / Rogues / Fighters / Thief's Guilds, the more basic colleges of various kinds, and so on, but what actually exists and holds power? The first and most obvious is the church and feudal society, as previously detailed. There's religious orders almost to the level of Teutons or Templars, but not quite formalised, and certainly nothing as pervasive as the Catholic Church, but it's roughly on par with Orthodox or pre-Chalcedonian Christianity where it certainly holds sway but not a unified sway. That's covered enough elsewhere. There's also clearly monarchies and republics (Verlucia, Merringland and Covisbury, Mogiae) but also still some more tribal or theocratic regions (Kydoimos, Foloi and Haryana, The Haux). So there's a pretty substantial range of institutions that probably shouldn't exist concurrently but do. So let's deal with more simple civic institutions by region, starting with the greater Oecumene (all of the continent, but also Mogiae, Verlucia, Aegea) region. I think of this as semi-feudal, not quite to the level of the Renaissance. So you have apprenticeships, some forms of education and early university systems (solely for the elite, but a player character is "elite" enough), a bit of arts and patronage of the arts, but this is still very scattered and rare. A painting is a rarity, as is a sculpture, but there's more tapestries, rugs, and pottery. Guilds are more and more common, particularly for occupations that are fairly profitable (merchants, mages (usually, Valcand wouldn't), probably something for armourers, enchanters, bowyers, or bards in some lands), but nowhere near unions or schools for these occupations. These realms also probably will have some formalised diplomatic service, even if these diplomats are probably not professionals but rather just sons or daughters of well-connected people (as is, realistically, leaders of levies or armies). One significant departure is that standing armies are actually pretty common, especially in the Abury Basin. While these didn't form historically until around the 1500s (at least in Europe), here they came earlier since there are pretty frequent border clashes - also a lack of a standing army means that player characters could get away with a lot of shit that they shouldn't. You won't find, however, some of the other crucial institutions that marked the feudal era: knights are rare and not at all a backbone of armies, aside from Merringland, as manorialism is not common. The nobility might collect some rents, but those are dwarfed by the rents collected by churches for herd feed. In general, there are few if any nobles and it's much more common for a prominent family to be of some trade - jeweler, enchanter, mage, merchant - than to simply own some land or be given some land. But the most enduring system in Oecumene, and elsewhere, are bounties and contracts. Oathbearers and Inquisitors are two major sources, but it is common for other prominent families to enact bounties and contracts through those organisations. These are the major source of adventurers and sustain the adventure economy, though often these are simple. Merchants might hire guards for their convoys or caravans, a priest might hire guards for a trip or soldiers to gather some resource or goods from afar, perhaps a king might hire mercenaries to go clear out some bandit region. Even villages will, at some level, partake in the system. Bounties can be sent against those who violate some law. This is a very, very well organised system as keeping adventurers busy prevent them from thinking "Maybe I should grab a handful of dust and attempt to stage a coup in Valcand" YES I'M TALKING TO YOU, Wikkiwallana. Almost every town or city has some town centre where the bounties and contracts are posted (kind of like Witcher III), major cities might go as far as to have a Contractor's Hall where the bounties and contracts are agreed to and magic used to compel adventurers to complete the contract properly - thus preventing them from running off with a priceless artifact meant for the High Priest of Damara and trying to conquer Valcand with it, yes this is still talking to you, Wikkiwallana. Outside of Oecumene, institutions are less robust. Dasia does not have organised guilds aside from those for bowyers and archers, a few for certain mages (particularly those who specialise in charms and healing), but nothing for merchants, craftsmen, textiles, or enchanters. It lacks diplomatic service or standing armies nor much for arts aside from some carefully designed armor and bows. It has contracts and bounties like other regions, rarely magically enforced but I also generally find it to be a bad idea to anger centaurs who might send Hauxi after those who are greviously harming them. Education systems are very primitive as oral traditions are still common: libraries are basically nonexistent, there are no universities as physical locations, but apprenticeships are vastly more common than elsewhere. These for the most part ensure communal unity, as generally its hard to have feuds if the only way to learn a trade is potentially to ask another family for assistance, but written guides and instructions are unheard of. The weakest institutions come in Urranti, particularly the north. Haryana and Khasut (and slightly Keres) are almost to the level of Oecumene in institutions, though arts are more focused on constructions and monuments than on tapestries or writings, and Haryana actually has more robust legal systems than the rest of the world - mostly because the church controls everything and frowns on the rather anarchic bounty system. In fact, Haryana banned most contracts and bounties aside from those approved by the church itself, which presents some difficulty for adventurers. The Labrysides has adopted some institutions, like guilds and libraries, but still clings to oral traditions and apprenticeships more than formalised instructions. None of these nations have formalised diplomatic corps and only Haryana has considered a standing army in any form. The Labrysides are the closest to having feudalism, with many strong landholding families since arable land is rare, but still don't approach historical feudalism. The tribal nations - Kydoimos, Mutayr, Elista, etc - have virtually no libraries or education system, very little for arts even in the way of stories, and lack robust apprenticeships. On the other hand, bounties and contracts proliferate. There's virtually no legal system aside from bounties and contracts and attempts to formalise the regions has largely failed. What this means mechanically is that the tribal regions are the least safe, as a player character who angers someone could easily be the target of a contract or bounty, but also generally the easiest to find work. Haryana has few jobs but they are mostly convoy missions that are relatively safe. Bards probably come from Oecumene or Dasia, any craftsmen almost certainly from those regions, while paladins probably call Merringland or Haryana home. Druids are rarities in Oecumene, as are rangers or barbarians or other more wild classes, but wizards and clerics are pretty regular. A well educated engineer is probably from Valcand and probably related to a military commander. Other examples of classes exist, but in general the more organised and rigid a class is, the more likely it comes from the basin or greater Oecumene. The more undisciplined or wild, Dasia or Urranti is more likely. And no one has to meet in a fucking inn anymore, because inns weren't actually that common. Final notes: I'm compiling a list of songs that roughly correspond with the regions or deities so that there's a better idea of the culture than what this has given. After my final, I'll post what I have.
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Wikkiwallana
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Post by Wikkiwallana on Dec 8, 2016 17:40:03 GMT
But the most enduring system in Oecumene, and elsewhere, are bounties and contracts. Oathbearers and Inquisitors are two major sources, but it is common for other prominent families to enact bounties and contracts through those organisations. These are the major source of adventurers and sustain the adventure economy, though often these are simple. Merchants might hire guards for their convoys or caravans, a priest might hire guards for a trip or soldiers to gather some resource or goods from afar, perhaps a king might hire mercenaries to go clear out some bandit region. Even villages will, at some level, partake in the system. Bounties can be sent against those who violate some law. This is a very, very well organised system as keeping adventurers busy prevent them from thinking "Maybe I should grab a handful of dust and attempt to stage a coup in Valcand" YES I'M TALKING TO YOU, Wikkiwallana . Almost every town or city has some town centre where the bounties and contracts are posted (kind of like Witcher III), major cities might go as far as to have a Contractor's Hall where the bounties and contracts are agreed to and magic used to compel adventurers to complete the contract properly - thus preventing them from running off with a priceless artifact meant for the High Priest of Damara and trying to conquer Valcand with it, yes this is still talking to you, Wikkiwallana . Bah, I'm not really much for actually playing such characters. I love armchair strategizing ways to ruin everyone's shit and come out on top, but I haven't nearly the guile or patience for the actual execution of such ideas. Plus, I find them very boring to play. On the other hand, if you ever do run a game in this setting, I really want in, because I love my idea for a centaur using Mongolian archery techniques, and think that would be all kinds of fun.
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panicberry
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Post by panicberry on Dec 8, 2016 19:28:13 GMT
But the most enduring system in Oecumene, and elsewhere, are bounties and contracts. Oathbearers and Inquisitors are two major sources, but it is common for other prominent families to enact bounties and contracts through those organisations. These are the major source of adventurers and sustain the adventure economy, though often these are simple. Merchants might hire guards for their convoys or caravans, a priest might hire guards for a trip or soldiers to gather some resource or goods from afar, perhaps a king might hire mercenaries to go clear out some bandit region. Even villages will, at some level, partake in the system. Bounties can be sent against those who violate some law. This is a very, very well organised system as keeping adventurers busy prevent them from thinking "Maybe I should grab a handful of dust and attempt to stage a coup in Valcand" YES I'M TALKING TO YOU, Wikkiwallana . Almost every town or city has some town centre where the bounties and contracts are posted (kind of like Witcher III), major cities might go as far as to have a Contractor's Hall where the bounties and contracts are agreed to and magic used to compel adventurers to complete the contract properly - thus preventing them from running off with a priceless artifact meant for the High Priest of Damara and trying to conquer Valcand with it, yes this is still talking to you, Wikkiwallana . Bah, I'm not really much for actually playing such characters. I love armchair strategizing ways to ruin everyone's shit and come out on top, but I haven't nearly the guile or patience for the actual execution of such ideas. Plus, I find them very boring to play. On the other hand, if you ever do run a game in this setting, I really want in, because I love my idea for a centaur using Mongolian archery techniques, and think that would be all kinds of fun. Yeah, I'll be honest, a large part of the reason why I decided to add centaurs and minotaurs while cutting out the standard dwarves/elves, aside from preferring Greco-Roman fantasy to Tolkien fantasy, was that personally I wanted to be able to play as a mounted character with high mobility and actual cavalry tactics but the standard settings make that really, really difficult or not fun. And really, the world isn't quite built for people to actually do that because it might work in the Lowlands but the entire structure is static by design. Everyone wants the status quo because the status quo is generally favourable - upsetting anything too much might cause another Carnax Crisis (did I write on that, shit I did not).
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panicberry
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Post by panicberry on Dec 8, 2016 19:29:25 GMT
oh wait I'm not writing on that because it's kept secret from everyone including players
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panicberry
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Post by panicberry on Dec 8, 2016 19:52:37 GMT
suffice to say that Valcand, Verlucia, and Haryana are kind of threatening the entire world for reasons that people should know about but only like fifteen people really understand and none of them have reason to disclose yet.
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panicberry
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Post by panicberry on Dec 21, 2016 22:29:48 GMT
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