Oviraptor
3000+
I smell like cabbage..
Did someone say space?
Posts: 3,693
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Post by Oviraptor on Jun 16, 2014 23:51:48 GMT
edit: Darn - ninjaed by the Mod. Note that "neutral" Vigilantes are often called "Serial Killers", i.e. out for themselves. Equally dangerous to town and Mafia, and I've known the night-time Mafia conversations being pretty much "how do we get rid of the Serial Killer?", because he's ruining the well-laid plans. I was thinking of adding one in as the "mutineer", but decoded not to for various reasons, 90% of which were various ways of saying laziness.
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panicberry
7500+
Phantom of the Opera
God save the Berry!
Posts: 8,150
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Post by panicberry on Jun 16, 2014 23:52:22 GMT
Everyone remember: I was the lone dissent in lynching Breadknife and I correctly guessed a mafia off the bat.
I am the best normal townie ever if you ignore that "killed by mafia" part.
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Oviraptor
3000+
I smell like cabbage..
Did someone say space?
Posts: 3,693
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Post by Oviraptor on Jun 16, 2014 23:54:20 GMT
As mod I could see pretty much everything that went on, but I have one question for you guys: how did you know it was Joseon?
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Breadknife
1500+
One confusion tends to be its direct inspiration.
Posts: 1,888
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Post by Breadknife on Jun 16, 2014 23:55:53 GMT
Best a normal townie dies than a power-townie, given the choice. You shall not be forgotten! (You won't let us, anyway...)
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Дьяково
6250+
Weird, but acceptable
Posts: 6,688
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Post by Дьяково on Jun 17, 2014 1:08:39 GMT
Oh yes, roles: Master-at-Arms (able to kill one player every night): Serrland Every night?! That's quite the role. Or is that normal for a vigilante role (that's what this is, right)? What happened in the first night (only 1 kill)? Did both you and the mafia target Edlichbury? Also, for future reference: what#s a vigilante's endgame? Do they have one? Or are they just wreaking havoc? The vigilante's end game is for the townies to win. Sometimes there's a reset period for his killing (in my game it was every other night) sometimes he has a limited number of kills, in this case there apparently was no limit. He probably didn't kill anyone the First night so as to avoid killing an innocent.
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Post by The Beautiful Darkness on Jun 17, 2014 1:19:57 GMT
As mod I could see pretty much everything that went on, but I have one question for you guys: how did you know it was Joseon? Process of elimination. We knew that it couldn't have been any of the remaining others, mostly through Blassy's investigations. I proved myself innocent/ the cupid when Jello and TSM were exposed as the lovers.
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Breadknife
1500+
One confusion tends to be its direct inspiration.
Posts: 1,888
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Post by Breadknife on Jun 17, 2014 3:08:01 GMT
As mod I could see pretty much everything that went on, but I have one question for you guys: how did you know it was Joseon? Process of elimination. We knew that it couldn't have been any of the remaining others, mostly through Blassy's investigations. I proved myself innocent/ the cupid when Jello and TSM were exposed as the lovers. For my part, it was also my interaction with Blassy (who I'll admit I still wasn't too sure about, until killed by the Mafia, which then immediately settled everything Blassy said as true and helped greatly... if Mafia had left Blassy alive there might have been one more day of investigation, but I might still have been suspicious of the information that came from that direction) who filled in the "innocent" gaps in my knowledge, and marked Gamerdog down as Mafia. (My Day 3 lynch vote for Gamerdog was actually a random choice from the then-unknowns, in my list, but I got confirmation from Blassy that night... but also a quite worried "why you vote for me?" from Gd the day I originally voted...) Joseon then came to me, privately, with "I am the surgeon, but I don't want to say so publicly." (Complete with several of the details of the role that I had previously publicly speculated about... which meant either I was right about those or Joseon was copying... and, it turns out, both were true ) I was willing to consider it, but that was before I even fully trusted Blassy, so of course I was still paranoid. However, at that particular point, I opined that an 'expended' one-shot Surgeon had no personal reasons to stay undeclared (although marginal reasons why they should, in order to help the town), so I tried to convince Joseon to make a public statement. But that did not happen, that game-day. Whether because my explanation was "too long and complicated" or because of the truth, I still don't know... But I remained marginally suspicious, and then I was willing to trust Chand's counter-claim more, when that happened, for various reasons (and not just the order they occurred in), so stuck with it. (Despite some remaining deviousness from another source, trying to nudge me away from my vote at that time...) Actually, if Joseon had claimed on Day 4, as I'd suggested, I'm sure Chand would have fairly immediately have jumped in (as happened on D5) and again a choice would have needed to made, at some point. However, Gamerdog was at that time (pretty much) a definite Mafia in my mind, so what happened D5 might well have played out exactly the same. Although I would have been perfectly willing to have accidentally lynched the Surgeon, by mistake, because I knew that I would still have had two more townies and me still around. One of us would have died, but whoever was left would have immediately gone for the false Surgeon the day after for a two-town-left win. It had already passed the balance point. (Although I may have creatively misrepresented some of the figures, and at one point I did miscount those remaining, when I just thought it was Gamerdog left to get rid of.) Or, at least, it had passed the balance point for a 'standard' game. I always had the sneaking suspicion that there was yet to be revealed some extra 3rd-party role, of some kind. It never came out that way, but I still was working with a half a suspicion that there was something else to consider, even though I pretty much thought I had the whole thing nailed down. Plus, I also had a pretty healthy regard for the suspicion that the people I knew to be innocent had of me. Just last game, the resurrected 'innocent' person became a converted Mafioso character. I knew that, if I weren't me, there'd always be a suspicion that I was similarly converted. Although, as noted, the required conditions used in the previous game had not occurred (a Mafia member being lynched while the Mafia Boss was alive), which at least ruled out some possibility. So, yes, my strategy was basically to try not to accidentally make myself look sufficiently guilty to the town to be re-lynched, yet perhaps goad the remaining Mafia into attempting a nightkill on me. Using weasel-words that hinted (in case they were thinking this) that whatever role-actions I might have had when I first died were not still with me. For example, with Blassy I was saying "I've got a offensive anti-Mafia role, but I've got to target properly or it won't work... As long as survive the night, I think I might be able to do something." Complicated, of course, by the fact that Blassy (the genuine article, it turns out, and thus my bait was being wasted) was all too eager to use the Detective skill to sound out targets that I'd be able to use, so I had to be somewhat evasive in a way that quite possibly made Blassy (the innocent) think I maybe wasn't quite on the level... But had Blassy been falsely claiming detective, I'm convinced that I would have been targeted and depletd the Pirate component of the crew (while incidentally saving whichever unfortunate actually did get targeted that night). So, folks, that's the way I was thinking. Even when I'm totally innocent, I tend to look guilty. Truly the only time I did not want to be killed was the Day 1 Lynch (when I had no clue whatsoever who was guilty or innocent... as was proven). And when did you all decide to kill me..? Indeed... (Did I already say that I was ->this<- far from targeting Jello, for my D1 revenge attack, until She-ep jumped in? Well, I'd have been wrong, if I had, except of course that NVO would have been forced to die as well, so it would have still have been a decent result. 25% of the Mafia lost, day 1, but only 20% of the town. If I'd done nothing, it would have been 10% of the town, alone. As it was, it was 20% of the town to no lost Mafia. But I still say it was worth a chance. If I'd actually chosen randomly, of course, there were four Townies to choose from and three Mafia which, with no other modifiers or weightings for power-role importance, would still have resulted in twice as much "impact", statistically speaking, upon Mafia numbers than town numbers. However you want to adjust those figures, Blassy (cop), Chand (resurrection) and Indigo (block) would have been safe from my retaliation, although Serrland (town Vig), Nobeard himself (Mafia recruiter) and Gamerdog (Mafia detective) would have been amongst the vulnerable. I think the Mafia unknowingly put themselves in greater danger than they actually knew, on Day 1. I'd go so far as to say that they were lucky, at that point...) But I fear I have expounded far too much, in one go. You'll doubtless have skipped to the bottom to try to catch my TL;DR; summary. Well, there isn't one.
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Дьяково
6250+
Weird, but acceptable
Posts: 6,688
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Post by Дьяково on Jun 17, 2014 3:16:36 GMT
Process of elimination. We knew that it couldn't have been any of the remaining others, mostly through Blassy's investigations. I proved myself innocent/ the cupid when Jello and TSM were exposed as the lovers. For my part, it was also my interaction with Blassy (who I'll admit I still wasn't too sure about, until killed by the Mafia, which then immediately settled everything Blassy said as true and helped greatly... if Mafia had left Blassy alive there might have been one more day of investigation, but I might still have been suspicious of the information that came from that direction) who filled in the "innocent" gaps in my knowledge, and marked Gamerdog down as Mafia. (My Day 3 lynch vote for Gamerdog was actually a random choice from the then-unknowns, in my list, but I got confirmation from Blassy that night... but also a quite worried "why you vote for me?" from Gd the day I originally voted...) Joseon then came to me, privately, with "I am the surgeon, but I don't want to say so publicly." (Complete with several of the details of the role that I had previously publicly speculated about... which meant either I was right about those or Joseon was copying... and, it turns out, both were true ) I was willing to consider it, but that was before I even fully trusted Blassy, so of course I was still paranoid. However, at that particular point, I opined that an 'expended' one-shot Surgeon had no personal reasons to stay undeclared (although marginal reasons why they should, in order to help the town), so I tried to convince Joseon to make a public statement. But that did not happen, that game-day. Whether because my explanation was "too long and complicated" or because of the truth, I still don't know... But I remained marginally suspicious, and then I was willing to trust Chand's counter-claim more, when that happened, for various reasons (and not just the order they occurred in), so stuck with it. (Despite some remaining deviousness from another source, trying to nudge me away from my vote at that time...) Actually, if Joseon had claimed on Day 4, as I'd suggested, I'm sure Chand would have fairly immediately have jumped in (as happened on D5) and again a choice would have needed to made, at some point. However, Gamerdog was at that time (pretty much) a definite Mafia in my mind, so what happened D5 might well have played out exactly the same. Although I would have been perfectly willing to have accidentally lynched the Surgeon, by mistake, because I knew that I would still have had two more townies and me still around. One of us would have died, but whoever was left would have immediately gone for the false Surgeon the day after for a two-town-left win. It had already passed the balance point. (Although I may have creatively misrepresented some of the figures, and at one point I did miscount those remaining, when I just thought it was Gamerdog left to get rid of.) Or, at least, it had passed the balance point for a 'standard' game. I always had the sneaking suspicion that there was yet to be revealed some extra 3rd-party role, of some kind. It never came out that way, but I still was working with a half a suspicion that there was something else to consider, even though I pretty much thought I had the whole thing nailed down. Plus, I also had a pretty healthy regard for the suspicion that the people I knew to be innocent had of me. Just last game, the resurrected 'innocent' person became a converted Mafioso character. I knew that, if I weren't me, there'd always be a suspicion that I was similarly converted. Although, as noted, the required conditions used in the previous game had not occurred (a Mafia member being lynched while the Mafia Boss was alive), which at least ruled out some possibility. So, yes, my strategy was basically to try not to accidentally make myself look sufficiently guilty to the town to be re-lynched, yet perhaps goad the remaining Mafia into attempting a nightkill on me. Using weasel-words that hinted (in case they were thinking this) that whatever role-actions I might have had when I first died were not still with me. For example, with Blassy I was saying "I've got a offensive anti-Mafia role, but I've got to target properly or it won't work... As long as survive the night, I think I might be able to do something." Complicated, of course, by the fact that Blassy (the genuine article, it turns out, and thus my bait was being wasted) was all too eager to use the Detective skill to sound out targets that I'd be able to use, so I had to be somewhat evasive in a way that quite possibly made Blassy (the innocent) think I maybe wasn't quite on the level... But had Blassy been falsely claiming detective, I'm convinced that I would have been targeted and depletd the Pirate component of the crew (while incidentally saving whichever unfortunate actually did get targeted that night). So, folks, that's the way I was thinking. Even when I'm totally innocent, I tend to look guilty. Truly the only time I did not want to be killed was the Day 1 Lynch (when I had no clue whatsoever who was guilty or innocent... as was proven). And when did you all decide to kill me..? Indeed... (Did I already say that I was ->this<- far from targeting Jello, for my D1 revenge attack, until She-ep jumped in? Well, I'd have been wrong, if I had, except of course that NVO would have been forced to die as well, so it would have still have been a decent result. 25% of the Mafia lost, day 1, but only 20% of the town. If I'd done nothing, it would have been 10% of the town, alone. As it was, it was 20% of the town to no lost Mafia. But I still say it was worth a chance. If I'd actually chosen randomly, of course, there were four Townies to choose from and three Mafia which, with no other modifiers or weightings for power-role importance, would still have resulted in twice as much "impact", statistically speaking, upon Mafia numbers than town numbers. However you want to adjust those figures, Blassy (cop), Chand (resurrection) and Indigo (block) would have been safe from my retaliation, although Serrland (town Vig), Nobeard himself (Mafia recruiter) and Gamerdog (Mafia detective) would have been amongst the vulnerable. I think the Mafia unknowingly put themselves in greater danger than they actually knew, on Day 1. I'd go so far as to say that they were lucky, at that point...) But I fear I have expounded far too much, in one go. You'll doubtless have skipped to the bottom to try to catch my TL;DR; summary. Well, there isn't one. TL;DR summary: Breadknife's thinking is convoluted, but gets results.
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Breadknife
1500+
One confusion tends to be its direct inspiration.
Posts: 1,888
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Post by Breadknife on Jun 17, 2014 3:59:17 GMT
TL;DR summary: Breadknife's thinking is convoluted, but gets results. That's not convoluted... Imagine me playing a Mafioso member, in-game recruited into a (separate) Cult and also having a Lover to protect, and still trying to find both the Townie Detective and the Serial Killer characters, whilst trying to maintain a public image that I'm Town, a Mafia-channel image that I'm pure Mafia, a Cult-channel image that I'm just a Cultist and juggling what I think everyone else thinks I think I know about them so that I can try to work out who the Cop, the SK and possibly a separate Mason Group might be whilst desperately protecting my Lover from both Town randomlynches and nightkills from any/all of Mafia, Cult, SK and Vig... (No, it didn't work. I didn't realise that my Lover was Polyamorous, due to a Serial Cupid with a sense of humour, and their other lover got killed (for reasons not totally unrelated to my own actions) thus forcing them to die, thus forcing my own death. Maybe I should have seen it coming...) edit: But, to be honest, what really scares me (at least in game-terms) is being a vanilla civvie on day 1 and having nothing to go on... Maybe you could say it's like trying to successfully bluff in poker without even having been dealt into the game!
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Post by joseon on Jun 17, 2014 4:39:21 GMT
Well, I made up the Ship's Doctor role out of thin air. I knew that someone had revived Breadknife, but I wasn't sure if it was Indigo (the Doctor) or someone else. Since none of the lynchings or townie posts indicated that someone like that existed / had been uncovered, I took the risk and coopted their role. My plan was basically to take out the detective that night (which I did, after combing through all of blassy's and Breadknife's very revealing posts), not get lynched that day (which would mean lynching chandelier), take out TBK that night, and then either win or convince Breadknife to vote for chandelier instead of me. The whole plan rested on chandelier not having been investigated yet, so I got buggered sideways in the end.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2014 5:12:45 GMT
I'm just curious if the mafia just randomly singled me out on the last go or knew I was detective.
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Post by joseon on Jun 17, 2014 5:52:32 GMT
I'm just curious if the mafia just randomly singled me out on the last go or knew I was detective. I was the last mafia left at that point and yeah, I suspected you were the detective.
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Gamerdog
2000+
Benomia/Bezombia from NS
Posts: 2,209
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Post by Gamerdog on Jun 17, 2014 10:33:05 GMT
At that point although all the pirates could still read what was going on, Joseon was alone so they could just pick whoever they wanted to die (that's why the night round went so quickly).
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panicberry
7500+
Phantom of the Opera
God save the Berry!
Posts: 8,150
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Post by panicberry on Jun 17, 2014 15:17:21 GMT
So mafia, why did you kill me? I'm curious if you just assumed I was playing detective the third time in a row or what happened (though really, being the only townie to not join in that lynch I can see that angle fine).
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Дьяково
6250+
Weird, but acceptable
Posts: 6,688
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Post by Дьяково on Jun 17, 2014 15:40:06 GMT
So mafia, why did you kill me? I'm curious if you just assumed I was playing detective the third time in a row or what happened (though really, being the only townie to not join in that lynch I can see that angle fine). We had to choose somebody…
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Post by jello on Jun 17, 2014 16:48:22 GMT
Ah, TBK knew that Not Very Observant and I were the lovers because she paired us.
Ovi, what would have happened if we'd been the last two left? Would she have been able to get out of our symbiotic relationship and kill me (since she was mafia and I was not) or did we have our own victory condition?
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Oviraptor
3000+
I smell like cabbage..
Did someone say space?
Posts: 3,693
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Post by Oviraptor on Jun 17, 2014 17:13:05 GMT
Ah, TBK knew that Not Very Observant and I were the lovers because she paired us. Ovi, what would have happened if we'd been the last two left? Would she have been able to get out of our symbiotic relationship and kill me (since she was mafia and I was not) or did we have our own victory condition? I actually hadn't thought of that. I suppose it would have to be a draw. In some games, the lovers have their own win condition (usually "be the last two alive") and are sort of a third faction, but I would've told you if that was the case.
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Post by Serrland on Jun 17, 2014 17:15:33 GMT
So mafia, why did you kill me? I'm curious if you just assumed I was playing detective the third time in a row or what happened (though really, being the only townie to not join in that lynch I can see that angle fine). We had to choose somebody… Did your role mean that I died when I killed you, or was it just a coincidence that I died that same night?
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Дьяково
6250+
Weird, but acceptable
Posts: 6,688
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Post by Дьяково on Jun 17, 2014 17:59:31 GMT
We had to choose somebody… Did your role mean that I died when I killed you, or was it just a coincidence that I died that same night? Coincidence, my ability was that I could recruit replacements for lynched pirates.
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Breadknife
1500+
One confusion tends to be its direct inspiration.
Posts: 1,888
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Post by Breadknife on Jun 17, 2014 21:29:52 GMT
In some games, the lovers have their own win condition (usually "be the last two alive") and are sort of a third faction, but I would've told you if that was the case. As well as that, I've seen cases where if they are mismatched lovers and all-but-one-lover are killed in a given faction that the lover automatically defects to the other faction, for the other faction to win. (Assuming there's no other factions or independents still blocking that from being yet so.) (If it happens to both, simultaneously, then obviously it's "last two" time.) It gets more complicated with polyamory situations, of course.
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